“We…I need feedback from people who don’t accept my ideas.” – Jerry BergmanAugust 18, 2006 at 6:05 am | Posted in Journal of Anti-Science meetings | 1 Comment
The quote that titles this blog entry is from an August 17, 2006 radio interview by Jerry Bergman on “Kansas Live,” a show produced locally for American Family Radio. The transcription was provided to me by Dr. Van Stipdonk.
“We…I need feedback from people who don’t accept my ideas.” – Jerry Bergman
The following is the transcript from an excerpt of a tape provided to me by the AFR affiliate here in Wichita. At the end there are links to other media promoting the event.
The meeting at Wichita State is Friday, August 18th, room 208 of Hubbard Hall.
Transcript of audio from “Kansas Live” on American Family Radio, Wednesday August 17th.
Tape begins with program in progress.
David Lehman: Uhhh…creation,
Lehman: especially in Kansas.
Host: And when and where?
Lehman: It will be in Hubbard Hall, room 208, and that’s right next to the parking lot for the stadium, and it’s in Wichita State University, at 7:00 on Friday, the 18th.
Host: Alright. And we will talk with you more, Mr. Lehman, but thank you so much, ahh, for at least sharing, uh, why Dr. Jerry Bergman will be coming to town. Now Dr. Bergman, if you would, uh, this is something that has permeated our school system for a long period of time and several generations now have been taught they just come from matter and that evolution is fact and they haven’t even been given the opportunity to criticize it as you would any science theory in a classroom. Uh, if you would, tell us a little about why you got involved with this particular issue and is it close to your heart, concerning the future of these children?
Dr. Jerry Bergman: Well, I became very involved because at one time I was an atheist and I became disillusioned with atheism, what they were doing and what they weren’t doing, they seemed to spend all their time condemning Christians and didn’t seem to go out doing good things. And I began to question atheism, and of course…is there a god? And the first thing I look at is why…why are we atheists? Why do atheists exist? And of course, one of the main reasons is, is that we believe, that, ah, scientists, and many, many scientists, and most all atheists, believe that you can account for the creation, not by a creator, but simply by Darwinism. And so, one of the first things I questioned since I did teach biology, that was one of my majors in school, I questioned whether or not Darwinism was true. And so I slowly but surely evaluated Darwinism, each of the arguments for Darwinism, one at a time, and I concluded after a certain point that the idea simply was not true. And by Darwinism I should stress, I mean what they say “from the goo to you by way of the zoo”. And that expresses the major idea behind Darwinism.
Host: Mmm-hmm. From goo to you by way of the zoo.
Host: And that is a very simple way of putting it. Umm…I don’t understand, umm, exactly why there is so much threat. You can’t prove evolution by evidence any more than you can prove the creation theory, and yet they say, “Well, evolution is the only theory that has all this evidence to back it up.” And yet you kinda say, “Unh-uh”. The evidence that they’re coming up with isn’t even accurate. Tell us a little bit about this DNA sequencing in Tex-rex and what that tells you about the theory of evolution.
Bergman: Well, now that we understand more how the, uh, cells divide and how cells work at the cellular level, an area called molecular biology, we realize that its not only the complexity but we realize that design is very apparent in life. The DNA code, for example, its very clear that there is strong evidence for design. Not only design, but design at a far more complex level that even we thought about a few years ago. For example, we know that there’s a code, which produces the amino acid sequence which produces protein. But now realize that there are codes upon the code, there are codes within this code…
Bergman: which help regulate the DNA…help regulate where it sits on the histones, for example. So as time goes by, it’s not only more complex, but als…it’s also more intricate and more evidence of design.
Host: Umm-hmm. And you…you even say that, uhm, evolu…orthodox evolutionists have claimed, uh, certain things to be true and yet your finding that that research is not valid. Uh, are they accepting, um, any of the argumentation against some of this, or is that what’s put the college professors in jeopardy?
Bergman: Well, when you come up with arguments against Darwinism, and when you begin to seriously, quest Darwinism…question Darwinism, yes it can, and often does, put your job in jeopardy. For example, I have a list now of almost 3,000 Ph.D. level scientists in the life science/physical science area that are what I call “Darwin doubters”. And I’ve gotta be careful on this list because I don’t want to “out” anyone. I don’t want the community…the scientific community…to be aware of these people are “Darwin doubters” because it could jeopardize their career. And so most people I ended up putting on the list are either retired or are well along on their career are, or are on a position such as in industry doing scientific research that their exposure will not affect them…or many of these are already out of the closet.
Bergman: They’ve written books and they’ve come out in support of intelligent design, or, creationism, so therefore I…I don’t have to worry about “outing” them. But that is a concern when I made this list and I wanted to check to make sure with these people, is it OK that you’re on this list and, uh, a fair number, about a third, says “No way, this would really hurt my career. And so I don’t want to be on your list, but I’m very supportive of what you’re doing”. So I didn’t put them on.
Host: You’re in the process of, uh, of a book that has not yet been released called The Long War By Darwinists Against Darwin Skeptics, documenting hundreds of these cases of blatant discrimination against these professors because they are at least willing to question or not buy the idea of evolution hook, line and sinker. Uhm, and I, David Lehman, who is in the studio with me from WSU, feel free to chime in anytime, here, and ask any question, uh, if you would like, of, uh, Dr., uh, Bergman. But Dr. Bergman, talk a little about this persecution. I know that at WSU, I have both my degrees from there, I did receive an F on my, the first paper I submitted, uh, with contents about Jesus, and about the Bible and it was the only F I got and I changed my…to a different major, and it changed the direction because I knew if I was going to be discriminated against writing one paper, uhm, given the freedom to do it, uh, anything I wanted, and choosing Jesus to get an F, really negatively effected my, uh, selection of what I was going to do there at that university. Um, that was just one minor student being persecuted. But you’re saying the professors themselves are being persecuted?
Bergman: Oh yeah. Very, very commonly so. In fact, of the 3,000 names that I have on my list I contacted about half of ‘em. And, good percent of those, I would say about 95%, related some incidents of persecution or some problem they had, denial of promotion, or denial of degrees, or they had to…they were denied tenure and they had to go in the closet and go somewhere else, et cetera. So it’s, it’s unusual not to have problems. Most the people I talked with had some problems, some had severe problems.
Host: What’s the source? I mean, it can’t be one particular person that’s controlling all this. Has the thinking just, and that the universities selected these liberal or evolutionist types of professors, uhm, throughout the years, and now that other professors are beginning to say, you know, “No, we don’t agree with this” that that’s what’s causing the problem? What, what is the root?
Bergman: Well, there are a lot of reasons for the problem. One is, is, that as I found out when I was an atheist, many are really very militant. I mean, extremely militant. And very determined that they are going to wipe out religion – they almost walk around with a hatred in their heart. They’re going to just do what they can to eliminate religion. And, of course, one of the main ways people can support the idea of a creator is to look at whether or not evolution is true. And they realize this. They realize that if people accept creationism, uh, the ideas of atheism are problematic.
Bergman: And they realize that creationism and intelligent design, and any attack on Darwinism, is a threat to their worldview. Even people like, uh, ohh, Lynn Margulis who is an atheist herself, but she has major reservations about Darwinism. She has even been attacked. She talks about this in her writings, that some are even vicious against her, even though she’s an evolutionist. But she feels that the Darwinian mechanism is incorrect, that another theory that she has proposed, is, uh, far more relevant to, uh, the mechanism of evolution. Namely a theory called endosymbiosis, and some variations of that where not only cells can be moved around but also genes can be moved around from one cell to another cell or from one organism actually to another organism.
Host: Hmm. We’re talking with Dr. Jerry Bergman, who will be a guest speaker coming up this Friday evening, 7:00 pm at Wichita State University’s Hubbard Hall in room 208. It is absolutely free and open to the public to attend. He will be talking about the persecution or, or…uh some of the distress going on in our college campuses when a professor either does not agree, uh, with the theory of evolution, or would like at least, uh, be able to express some potential for there to be a possible god who, who actually created us, uh, like the bible said. Uhm, there is a, uh…uh…a statement here where you talk about the issue in Kansas is not the age of the Earth, but whether God had anything to do with creation. Are you aware of the creation-evolution, uh, conflict with the Board of Education that has been going on here in the State of Kansas, and, and that particular issue?
Bergman: Oh, I’m quite aware of what’s going on. And what the Board is trying to do is allow criticism of Darwinism, they’re not trying to teach either creationism or intelligent design, but simply allow students to critically evaluate Darwinism. And even that, which is, you know, pretty non-threatening, I would think, but even that has caused the Darwinists to just go ballistic. And they are determined that they’re not going to allow any criticism of Darwinism in the schools. Now, of course, they wouldn’t say it that way. They would say, “Well, there is no criticism of Darwinism. It’s all…it’s been proven true and therefore there’s no valid criticism.” And therefore, they say, “Criticism of Darwinism is opening the door to teaching creationism”. And by and large, most creationists that I know, and all the creationist organizations that I’ve been a part of, do not want creationism forced to be taught in the schools. All they want, as far as I’m aware, all creationist organizations, and intelligent design organizations, all they want is to be able to freely be able to criticize Darwinism if the teacher wants to. Basically what they want is academic freedom, and of course that is by and large being resisted by movements that want to basically shove Darwinism down the throats of students and with incredible intolerance.
Host: Mmm-hmm. Uhm, we’ll go ahead and, I’ll let you take a short break here Sir, and listen in, as David Lehman explains a little bit about the college students on the campus. Uhm, Mr. Lehman, are you aware, since you’re a consultant and involved in this arena, are you aware of how the students are feeling about giving the freedom to actually be critical of a scientific theory? I mean, that’s what science is all about, uh…checking it and shaking it and, uh, writing down the results. And I, so far, I have never seen a half-monkey and a half-man, in the process of evolving, um, and, uh…so, what are the students saying on campus, if you would?
Lehman: Well, there’s several varieties of beliefs within the student population.
Lehman: What we do find is a lot of professors are very antagonistic against any kind of even theistic evolution being taught, and so atheistic evolution is the only thing that’s allowed. Now, some would say, “Well, we believe in a god out there, but they still believe in the ath..evolutionary model completely; hydrogen an odorless, colorless, tasteless gas given enough time becomes people. And so they have mechanisms that they suppose that they expect that will cause this to happen but I have never heard any of them explained; a mechanism that actually could even be theoretically workable.
Lehman: Because you don’t get code from a random process, as Dr. Bergman will explain, the code is there already, and you can have variation within the kind, but you don’t go from one kind to another. Environment will change, maybe cause triggers to actually operate, so that it will act like your immune system and yet we will lose information, but we will never gain information from a random process. Nobody that I have seen on the campuses has ever come up with anything that would demonstrate even a workable model of how evolution could occur at anytime, at anyplace.
Lehman: And yet we’ve had, s..we’ve had talks on this for 6 months on campus..
Lehman: …professors and graduate students and others have come, and they’ve been, uhm, we’ll I appreciate their coming, but they’ve been very critical.
Host: Mmmm. And so this is a very heated war and I believe it’s down to the root of principalities and powers fighting in the heavenlies for the truth, to actually be taught to a generation that will, will…uhh…have their behavior formed on their core beliefs of from where they came. Uhh, so Dr. Bergman, what do…what do you, um, say about why we’re not seeing one-half monkey, one-half man in process, and all the different things that debunk the idea of evolution, having real evidence that’s tangible today, uhm, to the students? What do you…what do you hope to have maybe come from your talk or to help in these colleges arenas on behalf of the students that will go through their courses.
Bergman: Well, number 1, I strongly believe that we need academic freedom. We need the right to discuss this issue – that’s the main concern that I have. And number 2, I think that Darwinism now has blinded people to important research areas. And in order to look in these areas, look at these areas, for example the degeneration of the genome, in order to look at this area we need to realize that, well, maybe Darwinism doesn’t explain everything. Maybe other theories are more viable, and of course this is the problem that Lynn Margulis has, where she’s looking at another theory and she is getting resistance. Of course, now, she is an atheist, she is an evolutionist – she’s looking at a different mechanism – so therefore she hasn’t been totally ostracized from the academic community, but nonetheless she’s written a fair amount about academic freedom and her problems that she has had in her career. And so it is a major problem that this straightjacket is put on people, that they can only look at the universe in one way, and attempts to look at it in other ways, which may support, or may not support, creationism or intelligent design; they don’t want people to go into this direction. And if they see where you are going, they…there’s resistance. They say, “Well, I…I see where you’re going and I…I don’t like this. I disagree with you.”
Host: Do you think…
Bergman: I’m sorry, go ahead.
Host: I’m sorry. Do you think it’s an underlying spiritual battle for the truth…of…of acknowledging a god?
Bergman: I…I think it is. I think that is at the core of a lot of it, and one reason why we have such a dichotomy is that creationists and intelligent design and the various opposers of Darwinism can get into the churches, and so they hear the other side. The schools only hear the one side and so therefore the country is being more and more dichotomized, not because religious people are necessarily inclined to accept creationism or evolutionists, non-religious people are more inclined to accept evolution, but because the format where most non-religious people are at, like the schools, accept only one view. The forum where the other side, the religious are at, accept the other view, therefore this has dichotomized the nation. That is a problem. I see this country as being divided right in half between the red states and the blue states, so to speak, and I see this as very divisive and very harmful. We need to dialogue. We…I need feedback from people who don’t accept my ideas. I need people to critically evaluate my ideas. And it’s hard to get that.
Bergman: Because they don’t critically evaluate them. They sit there and condemn the person, and this is what we see over and over, like what we see in Kansas with the Board. They rarely criticize what the board is doing; in fact I don’t think most people know what the Board is doing. They criticize the Board. They say they’re bringing Kansas back to the, you know, 12th century and they’re going back to the dark ages, and they’re idiots…and they’re name calling. They’re really not evaluating the issues. And this is one problem I had when I was with the atheist movement. They really are many…many are nice people, the nicest people I’ve known in my life are atheists. But on the other hand, so many were so vicious. And so just determined to wipe out religion and they were not critical or not ethical in the ways that they did this. They were in many, many ways very dishonest in how they tried to do this.
Host: Mmmm. In a minute, Sir, I’d like to hear from you about how you were transformed from an atheist to what I assume is a Christian today. So if you would, you might think about that a moment while we ask David Lehman, who’s here in the studio with me, to tell us once again when you’ll be speaking and where. And I understand not only at WSU, but also at one of the local churches here in town on Sunday. So, uh, David, Lehman, if you would, tell us again when Dr. Jerry Bergman will speaking here in Wichita.
Dave [Lehman] goes on to relate the details of the speaking schedule.
Host: Alright, and you’re part of those who…from the University to bring in, uh, Dr. Bergman.
Host: Alright. Do you have any comment, or anything that I maybe need to ask you or haven’t asked you before we go, uh, to back to Dr. Bergman to hear about how he became a Christian?
Lehman: No. I just appreciate your having us on the…
Host: Alright. Well, we’ll reiterate the dates and times again at the end of the program. He’s just being so quiet, and you know, so gracious that I wanted to make sure he had a chance to chime in there.
Show returns to Bergman and his conversion.
Other media promoting the meeting:
Christian Newswire: http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/42676709.html
Evangelical News: http://www.evangelicalnews.org/indiv_pr.php?pr_id=6578